Tiff Christie:
No matter whether you're distilling spirits or drinking them, we're all in search of flavour. But for distillers, there has been an increased movement that blurs the lines of their spirit by finishing them in the barrels of other spirits. 
We see Whiskey finished in Port barrels; Gin is finished in Whiskey barrels, and, as in the case of Pappa's Pilar's latest release, Rum that is aged in Rye barrels. 
Pappa's Pilar, the ultra-premium rum brand inspired by the legendary novelist, Ernest Hemingway, has just released its fourth expression within its flagship fleet. 

Mixing master distiller Ron Call's two great loves, whiskey and rum, this rye-finished expression is very close to his heart. A seventh-generation distiller who made his name along the Bourbon Trail, Cole brings his roots in the whiskey industry and his nuanced passion for rum to bear. 
To find out more, we talked to Cole about barrels, blending flavours, and how experimentation changes the nature of spirits. 
Thank you for joining us, Ron.

Ron Call:
I appreciate you having us.

Tiff Christie:
Now, the Rye finished expression has just been released. It could be said that this expression is very personal one for you.

Ron Call:
Yes, it is. The Rye Whiskey finish, I like using this number four char that I'm very familiar with. Plus the Rye Whiskey is exceptional in my opinion. So you kind of think in your mind how products are going to finish based on your experience. So far this Rye Finish Dark Rum is I think it's very good.

Tiff Christie:
Having come from a background in whiskey distilling, how different is it to distill rum to whiskey?

Ron Call:
Distilling is very similar to point. The fermentations are basically the same. You're fermenting the sugars into alcohol. And then, and most rums are aged in used bourbon barrels and bourbon whiskey has to be in a new white oak barrel. But it's, in this case, the barrels I'm using are once used raw barrels. heavy jarred.

Tiff Christie:
Now you've done a Rye finished rum before in 2021 as part of your legacy editions. What makes this version of the expression different?

Ron Call:
Actually, it's the age of the rye. The first release, it was a younger rye. This rye, the rye cooper were using today was basically a nine-year rye. And then we had some younger rye barrels in there also. But I think the biggest difference is the age of the rye whiskey that saturated that barrel. And we're pulling that out when we finish our dark rum in it.

Tiff Christie:
And how does that change the rum?

Ron Call:
Well, you know, the more you age, again, we got to go back to that barrel with a number four char. You're actually penetrating the wood deeper. You're going to get more vanilla notes and more colour. And what we're doing here is those barrels, that's what we're using. And to be honest with you, that's the only difference I can see is the age of the rye in those barrels.

Tiff Christie:
Right. Now, there seems to be a lot of finishing in other spirits or even wine barrels going on right now. Why do you think that it's so popular?

Ron Call:
I think people are trying to put a new twist on their products. That's the only reason I can say they're doing it. Sometimes I don't understand why they do it, but in their case, we can really, really put a twist on ours, like our dark rum in the Sherry or the dark rum in these Rye barrels, I think we've been hitting some home runs on what we've been doing. I can't, I really can't tell you why other folks are done it. Unless they want to be copycats. I don't know.

Tiff Christie:
Now tell us a little bit more about the barrels you sourced. Are they all coming from the same distilleries? How are you going about finding them?

Ron Call:
All right, now I'm only using two sources and I know them both very well. And I also know their suppliers. You got good suppliers and bad suppliers of cuprich. And I do know for sure what we're using comes from good suppliers. And the char levels is you can, you can look at the char. They call it alligator and you can look inside the barrels and these are number fours.

Tiff Christie:
Right. And when you talk about there being bad suppliers out there, what do you mean?

Ron Call:
Uh, I really didn't mean bad suppliers. She based on your experience, you know, you know who the good suppliers are. You know, I know the good suppliers. I don't know who we spec in. Um, there's nothing worse than getting a barrel of whiskey or whatever. And it, and it's empty. So you just deal with them. It's based on history. I mean, And it's just like when you buy distillation equipment, you go to the people that you dealt with over the years.

Tiff Christie:
Now you talked about the barrels being older rye barrels. How exactly does that change the flavour of the rum? Does it give it a depth to it or?

Ron Call:
It definitely gave it more depth than their previous release because these barrels, like I said, that's nine-year product and nine-year product, that wood's really saturated and you're going to get more of that colour and ride notes from that wood. Because, you know, if you can take a barrel stave and cut it in half, you can see how deep rye or bourbon penetrates that wood. And after nine years, I'd say this wood was fairly penetrated.

Tiff Christie:
And how long does the rum spend in the rye barrels?

Ron Call:
Well, it's kind of my decision, anywhere from four to six months. You gotta balance this thing out. You don't wanna lose your ROM profile and replace it with too much of your Rye. So it's a balancing act based on experience. Everything's subjective. So the longer you've been around, you hope you know a little bit more than other folks.

Tiff Christie:
It must be a little bit hard to judge though, exactly when take it out, I imagine.

Ron Call:
And it is difficult because it's a balancing act of your flavors that you're trying to, you want to get, you want to get the oak and leave the wrong profile. So it is a balancing act. And then, you know, it's, it's subjective, but again, it's based on experience. And then I'll let other folks give it a shot too, and see what they think.

Tiff Christie:
And speaking of other folks and what they think, what has the reaction to the expression been?

Ron Call:
Well, most people really think it's... It's a very good product. But you can sip it if you want to, or you can, when I first looked at it, I said, man, this is gonna make a great Manhattan. So we can either sip it, or I like a good Manhattan, and this product makes a very nice Manhattan.

Tiff Christie:
I was about to ask actually that I assumed you would want people to initially be using it as a sipping rum, but is it a good rum for cocktails?

Ron Call:
Well, I'm not a connoisseur of cocktails, but we do have a, I consider him like an expert, Kyle Cooper. He makes all kinds of drinks, but he recommended actually a Manhattan type drink called a hemi. I think it's what he calls it. But again, I've taken it to people and they just drop ice cube in it or just sip it straight.

Tiff Christie:
Yeah. Now if somebody was looking to use it in a cocktail, what other flavors do you think would work well with the rum?

Ron Call:
Well, again, I wish I could honestly tell you, but personally, I wouldn't mix this, this product. I would either go straight on the rocks, neat or a Manhattan type drink.

Tiff Christie:
Coming from a whisky background, when you develop a rum, how do you approach it?

Ron Call:
Personally, I like rums that are medium bodied. They're not heavy and fusel or pot steel characteristics. So all the rums we use, they're medium body. They're not, let's say they're not like a Jamaican style rum. Again, I would just classify these as medium to light bodied rums. And then In this case, this is a medium body rum that we finished in this, uh, the raw barrel. Or later we did the sherry barrels, but.

Tiff Christie:
Do you believe that there's the ability to experiment more with rum than there is with whisky in the distillation?

Ron Call:
Probably so because rums are more light-bodied. Bourbons has more congeners in it, fusel oils and flavour profiles where rum is, it's got very nice notes, but it doesn't have the heavy fusel notes on the end. So I think you can do more balance with different cupriches or whatever. But... And it makes, I think it's why they make nice cocktails because they are a lighter body product. Bourbon typically has got 220 or more grams per hundred liters of fusel oil or rums. They're typically 40 to 50. So that makes them a whole lot lighter, lighter to blend out. They're not overpowering in the drink, is what I'm saying.

Tiff Christie:
Yeah. Do you think that this sort of blurring of lines with finishing is changing the nature of spirits?

Ron Call:
I don't think it's blurring the lines. I think it's creating some opportunities for folks. And I think it opens the gates for other consumers. Just like this product, you're gonna have a select of people that really love this product. Then other people might not like it, but that's the same thing with any cocktail or distilled spirits. You either like it or, you know, to me there's no right or wrong in this business. It's what you like.

Tiff Christie:
As I mentioned earlier, the brand is inspired by Ernest Hemingway. How does this expression work in with that theme?

Ron Call:
Well, I mean, Ernest, I wish I was as well traveled as he was, but it kind of, it kind of inspires you somewhat. about the You know, I just, you just tried to make products that would probably meet his personal profile. So, um, that's, uh, that inspires you to a certain point, you know, he's, he traveled all over the world. So all of the islands we get our rums from. So, um, we try to look for some of those sources of rums and there's a few other sources I like to get hold of that. I know he's been there, so a lot of times they're difficult to get out of due to customs and transportation and things like that.

Tiff Christie:
The expression is based on the brand's dark rum, which is a blend of nine premium rums from all over the Caribbean. How do you decide which rums to incorporate?

Ron Call:
Well, again, this is what I mentioned. I'm looking for medium body drums. They got quite a bit of esters in it, nice fruity notes. Some of them are like fruit, some are like vanilla notes and cocoa and coffee. So again, it's all based on experience. And you kind of know how it's gonna turn out before you do it. But when you put something together, you already kind of got a feeling that how it's going to finish, to be honest with you. And that's just because you've been doing it 49 years, so you should know something.

Tiff Christie:
Now, I believe that the dark rum is created through a Solera system. Do you want to explain to people what that means exactly?

Ron Call:
Well, the solar is where we take our rums after we blend the non-rums. Then we go through a, it's actually a bourbon barrel. And then we let it sit there for a period. Then we go to our port barrels and then our cherry cask. So we're always leaving some of our rums in each barrel as we move them along. But that's.

Tiff Christie:
Because they're on levels, aren't they? And they sort of drip down or flow down like a waterfall almost.

Ron Call:
Well, that's one of the process. Erases in that complete, you know, like some people does, but we actually move the rumps from barrel to barrel.

Tiff Christie:
And how quickly or slowly or is that a case of every batch is different?

Ron Call:
Every batch is different and again, it's kind of up to my decision on how we want to do it.

Tiff Christie:
Why did you choose to produce it that way?

Ron Call:
Well, I'll be honest with you, that's the way the process started when I joined the company and we've been continuing ever since.

Tiff Christie:
You mentioned earlier the sherry expression. Did that go through a similar process to this one?

Ron Call:
Yes, it does. Yeah. Now the Sherry, I bring in the Ola Rosa Sherry cask. I've been using the same supplier for about seven years. And it's like we spoke about earlier, you go with people that, that you know, they give you the quality you're looking for. And you kind of got to, we don't go to brokers as such. We go straight to the horse's mouth. and get our cast. So that's the way I want to do business. Relationships.

Tiff Christie:
Are there other barrel finishes that the brand is going to be experimenting with in the future?

Ron Call:
Yeah, we got some in the works. I don't know if I'm allowed to talk about it.

Tiff Christie:
I was about to say anything you can hint at us.

Ron Call:
Yeah, in fact, I just got some in today. Let's see, there's three varieties of a special wine cask I want to tinker with. And then I got some other barrels that we'll definitely probably go with. What we do, we bring in a couple test barrels. and see how it turns out before we jump into something.

Tiff Christie:
And how long is that experimentation phase?

Ron Call:
Um... I like to fill the barrels with the product I think that fits the profile of the cask. And then you use, I got anybody been in the business, I got a barrel thief. So I can sample the cask after they sit. Normally I start looking at them in two weeks, a month, six months, three months, whatever. And so you're constantly sampling.

Tiff Christie:
Yeah, I suppose your experience allows you to get a fair gauge at that point as to whether it's going to end up being …

Ron Call:
Yeah, sometimes you hit a home run, sometimes you don't. But so far we've been doing very good.

Tiff Christie:
With the rye expression particularly, what do you want people to take away from their experience with it?

Ron Call:
Well, I just, I'll be honest with you. I love to see people taste the products and just look at their expressions and get your thought process. And yeah, I just hope they enjoy it. They enjoy it, that's it. But I enjoy more watching people enjoy it. I wish, sometime I wish I had more time to enjoy it with other people instead of having to make it all the time. But. Ha.

Tiff Christie:
Now, where is Papa's Pilar available? Is it available through all 50 states or?

Ron Call:
It's not in all 50, but they are expanding it. But let's see here. Uh, Bahamas, Canada, Czech Republic, Denmark, Greece, and Sweden. And, uh, I know we're in Michigan and some of the other states, um, but I don't have the complete list in front of me. I'm not in that side of it. Yeah. But we're expanding, I can tell you that. I can tell you more about the states at hand now. If you were in California, Colorado, Connecticut, Delaware, Florida, Illinois, Indiana, Maryland, Astutias, Michigan, Missouri, New Hampshire, New York, Rhode Island, South Carolina, Tennessee, Texas, and Washington.

Tiff Christie:
So it's both within the US and also overseas as well.

Ron Call:
That's correct.

Tiff Christie:
And if people want more information, they can of course go to the brand's website, which is pubberspiller.com or connect with the brand via your socials.

Ron Call:
Yes

Tiff Christie:
All right, Ron, well, look, thank you so much for taking the time to speak to us.

Ron Call:
Well, I appreciate that and I appreciate the conversation we had.