Tiff Christie
Many a Bourbon distillery has found favour with the public through the stories that they tell, and considering that many of those distilleries are located in Kentucky, it's not surprising that those stories often involve a horse. But when you combine Bourbon, a horse and sea journey across the Atlantic to the UK, there is only one distillery that can tell that particular story, and that's Never Say Die. You see, while Never Say Die is distilled and initially aged in Kentucky, its whiskey laden barrels are then sent across the sea for a final maturation in England. And where does the horse come in? Well, that ocean journey follows the hoof steps of the brand's namesake, the first American bread cult to win the Epsom Derby in 73 years, back in the mid-1950s. And how does it all relate? Well, to tell us more, we talked to Never Say Die, co-founder Martha Dalton about tariffs, thoroughbreds and aging whiskey at sea. Thank you for joining us, martha. Thank you for having me. Thanks so much. Now, the most obvious question is why set up an English Kentucky Bourbon brand?

Martha Dalton
The honest truth is it was a drunken idea concocted up by two friends at the Kentucky Derby, and we were just all so inspired by this horse Never Say Die that we wanted to make a bourbon from it. We just couldn't resist.

Tiff Christie
Now, I believe the horse was actually born on the land of one of your co-founders.

Martha Dalton
Exactly so. Two of our co-founders, pat Madden and David Weill, were friends at university and met up after a long time not seeing each other at the Kentucky Derby, and Pat was telling a story about this amazing horse that was born on his family's farm. And when it was born it couldn't breathe and the horseman had tried everything trying to revive this, this poor horse. And in the last roll of the dice, the horseman decided to put some bourbon up its nose and said this is either gonna kill it or save its life. And in the morning, you know, luckily, that horse was running around the pen and so they called it Never Say Die.
And as you said at the start, this horse went on to be the first American race horse to win an English Derby, and did so in front of Queen Elizabeth and Winston Churchill in 1954. So David, presumably after a couple of mint due lips, said let's make a bourbon and call it Never Say Die. So we brought together an incredible team to do just that and we wanted to be really true to our namesake horse. So we wanted to create a bourbon in Kentucky where Never Say Die was born, then bring it across the ocean in the original barrels and then leave it to further mature in the UK. So that's, that's the product that we've created.

Tiff Christie
Now, did any of you guys have experience in creating a brand, much less a spirits brand, before?

Martha Dalton
So the short answer is no. My background is communications so I know a bit about branding, but you know I wouldn't call myself a marketer. But what we did have in our team were Pat Heist and Shane Baker, who are incredible whiskey makers and have their own brand in Kentucky, so they were very much behind. You know all of the science behind our brand and we're really proud of the provenance.

Tiff Christie
Now I suppose it's important to highlight the fact that, especially for Bourbon lovers, although its final ageing is in the UK, no Bourbon laws have been broken in its manufacture in Kentucky.

Martha Dalton
That's absolutely correct. Yes, Pat Madden is a lawyer and is very hard on this. Never Say Die can be categorised as a Kentucky straight bourbon and we meet all of the rules. So it was produced in the USA, made of a grain mix of at least 51% corn, aged in a new charred oak barrel, and there are various kind of ABV rules as well that we comply with. So we're definitely a bourbon. We're just slightly stretching it.

Tiff Christie
Right. But speaking of your mash bill, it is actually quite an interesting mash bill.

Martha Dalton
Yes, so we're a high rye, which means that we've got a higher proportion of rye. So we've got 21% rye, 75% corn and 4% malted barley. And how?

Tiff Christie
ong is the ageing process in Kentucky?

Martha Dalton
So our first release, our first expression, was a single barrel bourbon released at cost strength, and that was just a little bit less than five years in Kentucky, then six weeks on the ocean and then two months in the UK, and as we go our releases will be progressively longer in the UK. So the small batch that we've just released was just shy of five years in Kentucky and almost a year in the UK.

Tiff Christie
But keeping that five years in Kentucky is important to you guys.

Martha Dalton
Yeah, I mean we know that our bourbon is great after five years in Kentucky and obviously bourbon matures faster in Kentucky because of the extreme hot summers and the cold winters. So we're still experimenting with exactly how long it will be in Kentucky, but it will be at least five years.

Tiff Christie
Have you got to a point where, through tasting the bourbon while it's still in Kentucky, you can determine whether it's ready to ship? Is there a point there, and have you guys tasted enough of it to know where that is?

Martha Dalton
Yeah, obviously we taste it, and we taste it a lot throughout the process, and then we've got lots of experts on hand to help us. But ultimately, if our master, distiller, says it's ready to ship, then it is. But I think what we've been finding which is really interesting is trying the product in the barrel when it's in Kentucky and then, after it's been on the ocean, you really can taste the difference, and I think that's the bit that we're experimenting with.

Tiff Christie
Now, where did the idea of shipping it actually come from?

Martha Dalton
Well, we wanted to be true to our namesake horse and we also wanted to push the boundaries. We think we're the only people in the world that are making a bourbon in Kentucky and then shipping it in the original barrels, so that also really appealed to us doing something completely new.

Tiff Christie
I suppose, yes, in the mid 50s, the only way. Well, I suppose even now, the only way a horse would get from the US to the UK is by ship.

Martha Dalton
Yeah, exactly, and we think that there was just something really cool about not cutting any corners and just being as true as we could to that brand story but also but not just for the sake of it, not just for a good story but to really create a product that was doing something new and being experimental. And a lot of the spirit of our brand is about trying things, being innovative, pushing the envelope, and so it really excited all of us that we were going to be doing something that people might think is crazy, but we think actually will add something really amazing to the liquid.

Tiff Christie
Did you know before you started doing it that it would have the effect on the liquid that it does? We?

Martha Dalton
suspected it would, because it adds a third climatic condition that the bourbon is exposed to.
And so we thought that that was something that we really wanted to try out, because obviously climate has a huge role in the maturation of whiskey, and so barreled spirits age much faster somewhere like Kentucky, due to the extreme temperature changes between the season, and so the process of heating the barrel during the summer and calling it during the winter month causes the spirit to be sucked into the, the char and the caramelized oak, and during the hot month, as the wood expands, and then in the cold months the wood contracts and deposit a wood season spirit into the rest of the contents of the barrel, and so the changes in temperature and pressure extract the vanilla in the tannins, wood sugars and other aromas and flavor from the oak.
So that's the Kentucky bit. And then the reason that we wanted to also mature in the UK is so that we benefit from the more consistent climate of the UK, which brings its own benefits, because the cast can breathe and it draws in air, which causes the spirits to slowly oxidize, which promotes a series of chemical reactions that give it a more intense and complex flavor. And so, blended those things together, you know we get something really special. But then add into that a third climatic condition, which is on the ocean, where our product is obviously exposed to sear but also to the waves, that really shake it, shake up the alcohol in the barrel, and we think that that's what gives never say dire, distinctive flavor profile.

Tiff Christie
Now, realistically, it must be incredibly expensive to be shipping whole barrels over to the UK.

Martha Dalton
It's certainly not a cheap process, but we are a premium product and we're trying to make the best bourbon in the world, and so we really think that it adds something to the flavour of our bourbon, which is why we wanted to do it, and we also wanted, to be true, to never say die. So for us it's an important part of the process.

Tiff Christie
Now, you talked about being exposed to the sea air as well as the waves. Do you think the salt, the saline element of sea air dramatically affects the taste?

Martha Dalton
When I've been doing tastings with people, it's definitely something that people have felt that they can. They can taste and they're being a little bit of saltiness. They're amongst the kind of more caramel and, you know, the kind of the oak and the vanilla. So I think for people with a good palette there is something you know distinctly in there for sure, I suppose each sea voyage is going to be a little bit different.

Tiff Christie
You're going to have different weather conditions and things like that. I suppose you haven't had enough barrels coming across yet to be able to pinpoint when and how those differences affect things.

Martha Dalton
Yeah, no, that's right. At the moment We've only made one shipment from the US to the UK, and we did that in the summertime and then it also got stuck at Liverpool dock for far too long in a heat wave. So that certainly will have brought something you know, particular to to that shipment, and for us we kind of like the fact that each shipment is going to be different and that it's also slightly outside of our control, and so we are leaving part of the process to the gods of the sea, and we're okay with that.

Tiff Christie
When it arrives in the UK, its final maturation occurs at White Peak Distillery in Derbyshire. How did that come about? How did that collaboration happen?

Martha Dalton
Well. So we knew we wanted to collaborate with an English whiskey company, as our brand story is about a racehorse winning in England and obviously there's a really established Scottish whiskey scene in Scotland. But for us the English whiskey scene is really exciting and as a challenger brand, we loved the spirit of people trying something new, like we're trying to do, and we heard about White Peak from some friends in the industry and when we met them we just loved the passion that they had for their product and also how kind of embedded in the place that they make their whiskey they are. There was just something really beautiful about where they were in the Peak District and actually the collaboration that we have with them means that they are now making their own White Peak product in our freshly dumped barrels. So there's going to be a collaborative whiskey coming out in the future. That is also quite exciting, oh that's interesting.
It's nice the way everything is intertwined Exactly, and normally, if you're based in the UK, you get barrels. They've been broken down, they've been steam cleaned Basically all of the goodness has been taken out of them, whereas our barrels, when they're freshly dumped, they probably have a couple of litres of alcohol still in them. So it really will be a bit of our alcohol will be in there, and we think that that's something that we're really excited about.

Tiff Christie
Yeah, that would be really interesting. Now let us talk about politics and tariffs, as every bourbon conversation should eventually get around to. If the US hadn't changed their tariffs, this never really would have happened. But that's only been quite recent.

Martha Dalton
Well, we were obviously delighted when they were finally lifted and we actually shipped our first shipment the day after the tariffs were lifted. So that was fantastic, but it was quite a gruelling process. Leading to that point, we actually misunderstood the situation and we thought that, because the UK was leaving the European Union, that we would also leave the tariffs behind us. But we were completely wrong about that and what actually happened was the UK left the European Union. We kept the tariffs. A couple of months after Brexit, the European Union did a deal with the US, so the tariffs didn't apply in Europe anymore, it was just the UK. Oh, okay.
So it was a complete nightmare, but because we are people that do like to take charge of our own destiny, what we did was we came together with big brands like Brown, foreman, james Santori, our distributor, n10, the hospitality sector in the UK and also Discus in America to form the Bourbon Alliance to lobby for the tariffs to be lifted both here in the UK and in the state. And so I set that up and we got a great reaction from MPs here in the UK and our colleagues at Discus. We're working really closely with the Bourbon Caucus in America to make the case for the tariffs to be lifted, so we were really pleased when that happened.

Tiff Christie
I suppose political lobbying wasn't something that you expected when you started this.

Martha Dalton
Well, it actually was. So it was one of those nice things where I actually could use my day job to further never say die, but I also totally had skin in the game, and so it was the first time when I was lobbying for something that really would have a financial impact on me. So, yeah, it was a good project and it was great to work with the big brands and other people in the hospitality industry, to all come together and to make some more friends in the industry. So it was good fun and we got the right results.

Tiff Christie
So yeah, now you've recently launched the second small batch release. Talk to us about how different that expression is from the first.

Martha Dalton
Sure. So our first expression was single cast barrel strength bourbon on a really really limited scale, and these were high ABV, around 60%, so not for the faint hearted. Our second expression is a small batch bourbon. No, but we've kept the batches really small, so only 10 barrels in each batch, and we've hand selected which barrels blend together to get the best finish. And that was, you know, quite a labor intensive process of trying about 60 barrels, rating them all on different flavor profiles and then working out which was the best blend. And then we've brought down the ABV a little. So our small batch is 47.5% and that's the product that we are. That is going into bars across the UK now and we'll be in bars in America over the summer.

Tiff Christie
And what is the reaction been so far to the release we?

Martha Dalton
launched last year at the whiskey show and before that we made sure that our first ever barrel was on sale only to members of the British Bourbon Society who are, you know, the kind of absolute kind of fans of the category here in the UK, and we really wanted to work with them and the reaction from them was incredible and that really meant a lot to us. And then we launched our small batch at the Epsom Derby a couple of weeks ago and again people were just absolutely loving the small batch. Lots of us were drinking our version of a mint julep that we called the Epsom Derby and you know it was just a really drinkable long drink, that, where the small batch flavor still kind of really held through. So yeah, we are, we're really delighted with how it's going and we are just excited to bring our product to more Bourbon fans but also to try and encourage people that think that they're not whiskey drinkers to give it a try to.

Tiff Christie
Now, presumably you would want people to try yeah.

Martha Dalton
Yeah. So you know, I definitely think it can be a sipping bourbon, but we're also you know, we don't want to be prescriptive we want people to enjoy it however they like. So in a boulevardier, for example, absolutely incredible. The drink I was mentioning just now, the Epsom Derby cocktail, is with pink grapefruit and mint leaves and honey syrup, and that's absolutely delicious. We also have invented something called a chestnut highball, which has got a chestnut liqueur in it and orange bitters. That's also really, really good. So I think, ultimately, we want people to be experimental and drink their bourbon however they want to drink it and whenever they want.

Tiff Christie
So Now, with this second release, what are the flavours that you've found come through most strongly?

Martha Dalton
I think that it's because it's a slightly lower ABV. It doesn't have the same intensity, but it's still a really kind of smooth but punchy taste, because it still is. You know, it's still got the high rise. So you know it's got that spicy flavours, but it's still got those kind of beautiful kind of caramel and vanilla as well.

Tiff Christie
So if someone was experimenting with the second batch at home,

Martha Dalton
Well, I think it's really good with any kind of fruity flavours, so whether it's more of the grapefruit or more of the orange. We've also tried it with sherry. That's also really good. So, what we call the Churchill Manhattan, it's got sherry, it's got chestnut liqueur in it, it's got Angostura bitters. So I think it's pretty versatile, I would say, but for me I think I will be tonight I'm actually going to a bar in London to order my first never say die cocktail in a bar, which is, you know, a huge milestone for me, and I'm hoping that they will make me a kind of Kentucky lemonade with it. So that's what I'll be going for?

Tiff Christie
I was about to ask, actually, having presumably sent these out to a number of bars, have any of them come back with recipes and cocktails that you didn't expect?

Martha Dalton
So when it went out to bars a couple of weeks ago. So we're still at the early stages of that and people have quite good coverage, kind of by the end of the summer. We're talking with a couple and it's just interesting that chestnut has come up a lot. I think it's people being quite smart, because never say die was a chestnut cult with three white socks.
Oh no, it's black, and so I think that people have read that in the brand story and are going to bring that through into a cocktail, which I think is just. You know, it's really beautiful. It's nice for other people to be creative with your product and, you know, spot new angles. So, yeah, excited to see what people come up with.

Tiff Christie
And it would take the longevity of that cocktail beyond the summer and into the autumn months particularly well, I imagine.

Martha Dalton
Exactly, and I think it's something that could definitely work well, you know, paired with a dessert as well. So I think that there's you know, there's exciting stuff around that for sure.

Tiff Christie
Now, what do you want? People, who, consumers, who are trying your bourbon, what do you want them to take away from the experience?

Martha Dalton
That is an interesting question. I think that we want bourbon fans, bourbon geeks, to really understand the kind of the passion but also the science that's gone into this. You know, it's not everyone that is shipping their bourbon across the ocean and exposing it to three different climatic conditions and that's that end of the market to really appreciate the kind of the complexity of what they're tasting. But we also want to bring more people into the category. I think that for too long whiskey in general has been seen more as a male drink and I think that that's just completely crazy and we really want people, whoever they are, to give, never say diatri and to hopefully embrace the kind of the fun behind the brand as well.

Tiff Christie
And speaking of that fun, what does the future hold for? Never say di no-transcript.

Martha Dalton
Okay, so we're going to be launching in the USA in the next month or so, which is obviously huge for us. We're also looking to bring forward a third expression later in the year, which will be our ride. So that's pretty cool.
And then after that we're going to be looking at other export markets. We want to start to collaborate with travel companies as well. We think that there's something that really works well in terms of having never say Diana's ship or never say Diana an airplane. We think that that kind of all feeds into the sort of transatlantic nature of the brand, but also the liquid behind it.
And then we're also looking at how we can team up with people that are enthusiastic about horse racing around the world to also embrace never say die as what they see as the kind of race day drink.

Tiff Christie
So we're looking to explore quite a few different things, yeah, so at the moment you haven't taken the bourbon back to the US yet.

Martha Dalton
Yeah, so it's well. It's going to be on a ship in the next couple of weeks. It's already bottled and ready to go. We're just trying to pin down a shipping container. Global shipping is quite tricky at the moment so we're just trying to pin that down. But we've got distribution lined up in America so we're hopeful over the summer it'll be ready?

Tiff Christie
Which day do you coming in through?

Martha Dalton
I don't actually know yet. I think that we're working with our kind of shipping partner to work all of that out. But we're looking to obviously be selling in you know kind of key states, so in New York, in Washington, obviously back in Kentucky. So yeah, we're working with distributor about how we can get it into as many states as possible.

Tiff Christie
Now, at the moment, where is the bourbon available?

Martha Dalton
So in lots of good retailers like the Whiskey Exchange, master of Malt, whiskey World Headners and Wine House of Malt and quite a few more. We're also on Amazon and people soon will be able to buy never say die through Zap, which is a shopping app, and then in London, we're going to be entering the bar market, or already have done this month and hoping to be across the UK and bars and restaurants kind of high-end cocktail bars, etc. Throughout the summer.

Tiff Christie
Now, of course, if people want more information, they can go to the website, which is never saydieburboncom, or connect with the brand via your socials.

Martha Dalton
Yep. So if you can connect with us on Instagram or never say die bourbon and on there you can see more about the brand story, hints and tips of cocktail recipes a whole range of stuff. So please follow us.

Tiff Christie
Cool, all right, look. Thank you for taking the time, Martha, and thank you for sharing the story of the brand.

Martha Dalton
Thank you so much for having me. It's been a real pleasure.