Tiff Christie
Host
00:41

If you know anything about whiskey, it's probably that the greatest overall contributor to a whiskey's flavour is the wood in which it is barrel-aged. And if you know anything about Irish whiskey, it's probably that almost all Irish whiskey is aged in either American white oak or European white oak. But what if it wasn't? This is the question that distillers like Alex Chasko, Master distiller at Teeling, are asking, with the brand's new Wonders Of Wood releases. To find out a little bit more about how different wood changes the elixir of life. we talk to Alex about oak ageing and what geography does to whiskey. Thank you for joining us, Alex.
Alex Chasko
Guest
01:30

Well, thank you for having me. That's a great introduction there. Tiff, the wonders of wood and how does wood and different types of wood influence Irish whiskey? It's a great topic, thank you.
Tiff Christie
Host
01:43

Now you've just released the second edition of the Wonders of Wood Bottlings, But before we talk about that, can you tell me where the idea for Wonders of Wood came from?
Alex Chasko
Guest
01:57

The idea for the Wonders of Wood came from I'd say primarily the legislation around Irish whiskey, which states that Irish whiskey must be matured and cast made of wood It doesn't say oak like it would in Scottish whiskey And we always were looking at those rules and those regulations around Irish whiskey and trying to see how can we do something different, how can we be a bit unusual, and that was obviously one place where we had room to move that traditionally they haven't played in. So we started looking at ambrana, we started looking at different South American hardwoods and acacia and cherry and all kinds of different woods. And that's where we started this series of the Wonders of Wood, of trying to see how can that magical maturation process be used to create unique and unusual flavors in Irish whiskey.
Tiff Christie
Host
03:04

So does that mean that, as the series continues, you'll be leaving oak behind at some point?
Alex Chasko
Guest
03:12

You know, i think it needs to be a journey right And you can't just start going off in mad directions without some sort of logic as to where you're taking the consumer. So for the first one we used a chinkapen, which is an American oak right, similar to corkis alba, which is the standard American white oak that gives you vanilla and your honey flavors that you typically associate with Irish whiskey and Scotch and American bourbon also. But the chinkapen went in a bit different direction. It had a bit of spice, a bit of nuttiness there, a bit of like gingerbread kind of earthiness. That was interesting, and so we're trying to take people on this journey. So the second one that we have, the Portuguese oak, is kind of up in the game a little bit more tannins, more of a figgy jammy kind of flavor coming from the wood, a bit more for lack of a better phrase funk, i guess, and there it kind of gets a bit blue cheese Some people have called it even like burnt tires.
04:23

But yeah it's unusual And you know what, as a whiskey maker, i was like, really People want that, is that what you want in your whiskey? But we went and we did. Thanks to COVID, we did these online tastings, and in doing these online tastings with people from around the world, we found out that actually, the weirder and the funkier you got, the more people liked it. So Portuguese Oak was one that we had, yeah, for a long time in the warehouse. We've had it for probably about seven or eight years, and I was always very unsure about like, okay, how much are we gonna use? Where are we gonna use it? What are we gonna do? And it was through these online tastings that we found out you know what People are ready for it That we actually weren't ready for it. So I guess, going back to your original question, where are we gonna go? I don't know. We're gonna go on a journey here.
05:18

We started out with chinkapin right, which is an American oak, bit different, though, than your normal American oak. We then decided let's do European oak. So we went Portuguese oak, which is again European oak, but a little bit different than your French limousine oak right, where your French limousine oak has more of that spice to it And the Portuguese oak is known for its tannins. In fact, when we started to buy those casks from a Portuguese cask manufacturer, they were being used for wine. They were being used for wine in the Mediterranean areas, the sort of Eastern Mediterranean, turkey, cyprus, georgia, israel, those areas for winemaking.
06:06

And they said you don't want these casks. And we were like, well, why? Why don't we want these casks? And there's too much tannins. It's used as a component in winemaking to really have a high impact of tannins. And they said, with spirit, it's just gonna overwhelm it. And we thought, well, let's see what overwhelming is like. What is that world look like? Yeah, okay, we'll take some. And we liked it. We thought it was interesting, definitely unique. Not sure that the general consumer was ready for it, but, like I said, when we went out to different online tastings during the lockdowns of the last what two years there, we found out you know what people are ready for it. So it's gonna be an interesting journey.
Tiff Christie
Host
06:52

I was about to ask .. every wood must have completely different qualities to it. Gaging, how long you're ageing it for and what you're doing with it, must be a new adventure every time.
Alex Chasko
Guest
07:08

Yeah, and you know whisky making is a new adventure every time because it's a very long process, right? You've got the milling, the mashing, the fermentation and the distilling, which takes roughly about 10 days, but then you've got this illegally have to age the spirit in a cask for three years, in our event, right? So you go through this long process where the whisky starts out a bit hot and a bit fiery and then it starts to develop other flavors. You start to get these they call them lignin degradation products. You get these other caramel, toffee, vanilla, spice, things like that in there.
07:53

But then we start playing around with different varieties of wood or even different species. Completely. They have whole new interactions that you wouldn't have necessarily expected. So, like chestnut, for example, chestnut's got a much wider grain and is more porous and it really oxidizes the whisky quite rapidly. And you can take even an aged spirit and put it in a chestnut cask and within three months it's completely changed the DNA of what you would have thought the spirit was you were making. So it's a bit of a journey for me, as a whisky maker too, to go through this process of like, okay, what's going on? Sometimes changes happen quite quickly, sometimes changes take longer. It's a very interesting journey to go on, and one that I'm happy to share with other people.
Tiff Christie
Host
08:54

You must be constantly watching the barrels, then.
Alex Chasko
Guest
08:58

Yeah, you are, Yeah, there's, yeah. So in the beginning there's a lot of anxiety, hopes, desires, fears in there as to, like, what's going to happen. And then what's interesting is, you start to or I started to let go of that. I started to let go of all those preconceived notions that I might have had and say you know what, let's let the whisky decide what it's going to be. That's it. Show me what you got. what are you doing? How are you changing, right? How do those tannins that are very quick to be added in from the Portuguese Oak, how do they digest? How do they change over the years? right? What do you get out of the other side? And that's very interesting.
Tiff Christie
Host
09:50

It must be difficult to know whether you've left it long enough, or whether you've gone too far, or You know the whisky tells you.
Alex Chasko
Guest
10:01

really, it's about, like I said, stepping back from those fears and those preconceptions and just saying all right, what does this taste like? Do I like it? Is it something that I would buy? Who's going to buy it? Where are they going to buy it? What are they going to do with it? Right, and is it just an odd whisky? or is this something more? And Some experiments don't turn out the way that you want them to, but they all, for the most part, have turned out to be something unique and interesting and, i think, worth sharing and worth having people try and see what they think and expand our mind as to like what could whiskey be? what should whiskey be? who is interested in whiskey and why are they interested in it? All those sorts of questions are things that you can start to answer when you get a broader range of flavors, let's say, in Irish whiskey.
Tiff Christie
Host
11:06

Apparently, there are 400 plus species of oak alone around the world. How do you know what to go to next? What are you looking for?
Alex Chasko
Guest
11:20

Well, the simplest answer to that is that you go to suppliers that are already cutting down some of those trees and using them for casts. So, like chinkapen, chinkapen would have been used for American rye whiskey and it would have been considered a weed or a scrub tree that they would have as they were going for the alba. they would have mistakenly cut down a few chinkapens And they knew that it was being used for casts, but they would have used that wood for non-burban casts. And I looked at that and thought, well, anytime somebody's not using something, i'm kind of like, why are they not using it? And I thought what's going on there? What opportunities are there where other people have maybe passed over or not looked at it? And I thought, okay, well, we've got a wood that's being used for rye and in Ireland we've got a pot still whiskey which is the closest thing to a rye that you're going to get by not using rye, because pot still has this spice and this oiliness to it. And I thought, well, let's put some pot still in these chinkapen casts and see what happens.
12:44

And the tealings have always had a love of that exploration, that entrepreneurial side and that sort of like. what if let's take an educated guess and see what happens, and so it's been great to have that flexibility and that freedom to explore. You're right, it's only at the beginning of the journey, right? There's 400 different other varieties out there. One I'm trying to get my hands on I can't find is California Blue Oak.
Tiff Christie
Host
13:16

Why are you looking for it particularly?
Alex Chasko
Guest
13:23

I just I've always had a love of California, okay, and thought, okay, here's a tree, california. If you look at those golden hills of California, they have oaks growing on them right And like, has anyone ever thought about using that? In my own personal history, jeff, coming from Portland, oregon, there's the use of Oregon pine as a fermenter for making whiskey, And one of my formative moments was being at the Glenfiddler distillery and the lady saying and here we are with our Oregon pine fermenters And I was like no, hold on a second, wait a minute. What Back it up, right? What are we talking about here? And it took me about two years of doing research to try and finally figure out that they're made from Douglas fir.
14:16

But, as an Oregonian Douglas fir like in my backyard growing up.
14:21

there was 650 foot Douglas fir trees there And the idea that like you could cut those down and make a tank out of it and then ferment whiskey in it. That's mad, That's just completely crazy. And they've been doing that actually for over 200 years in Scotland. You know, like what? That go away. Like that's just crazy, That's not, that doesn't really happen. Oh yeah, it doesn't really happen, Okay, So so I guess that's the what if, And I was like what? Why California blue oak? Because no one's using it, because it sounds interesting And because you know it's a challenge.
Tiff Christie
Host
15:05

You're going to get to the stage where you're going to want to use woods that nobody's actually formed into barrels yet, though, aren't you? Yes, absolutely, we're at that stage right now. And what happens? Do you get told no, a lot.
Alex Chasko
Guest
15:22

Custom barrels made, or You go to suppliers and they tell you no and then you say, okay, well, why, why no, right, How can we? that becomes a challenge in and of itself. How do you try and get people to use wood? We had a in a former life and a former career. I made a whiskey using bog oak here in Ireland. We've got this oak that's been preserved for 5000 years in the bogs of Ireland. Oh, wow, Yeah, And it took about a year of living here before I was like wait a minute.
15:59

We make casts out of oak And there's 5000 year old oak just like in the ground. All right, let's get some bog oak and let's. People are like no, no, no, it's too hard, it's too tough, it's doesn't bend, it's this and that, all these reasons. But you overcome those challenges and you create a whiskey that's been matured with 5000 year old wood and you're like that's pretty cool, that's, that's interesting. Flavor wise does exactly the same as limousine oak It does. It has that orange zest spicy quality that you get from limousine French oak.
Tiff Christie
Host
16:36

Okay.
Alex Chasko
Guest
16:37

It's just 5000 years old.
Tiff Christie
Host
16:39

I would have expected it to be sort of darker and.
Alex Chasko
Guest
16:42

Yeah, I was expecting to have loads of phenols and tannins and like just to be like, yeah, like sucking on a piece of turf.
Tiff Christie
Host
16:49

Yeah.
Alex Chasko
Guest
16:51

No.
Tiff Christie
Host
16:53

Yeah, how open are your barrel makers to experimenting?
Alex Chasko
Guest
17:01

In the beginning very cautious and very reserved right, and then, as they start to realize that like wait, there's, there's actually there's other people that are looking for this stuff too, that like it's not just about trying to make you know 60,000 barrels a year, that people are interested in small numbers of unique products, i think that you find, you find suppliers who are willing to go on the journey with you, and those are the people that I'm looking for right now is like who's? who's looking to make something unique, who's looking to make something unusual? And then I'm looking to make a unique and unusual Irish whiskey to go on that.
Tiff Christie
Host
17:48

Theoretically, you must have the third iteration in this series already resting. Are you able to give us any hints as to where it goes?
Alex Chasko
Guest
18:01

Well, we are going to continue the European oak journey, but we're going to go a bit north this time. The third one's going to be a Swedish oak.
Tiff Christie
Host
18:16

Okay.
Alex Chasko
Guest
18:17

Yeah, we've teamed up with a small cast maker in northern Sweden who makes casts out of virgin Swedish oak, and it's it's a very interesting whiskey. It's got more of like berry kind of botanical kind of flavor coming off of it. That's very unique. But, you're right, there's, i'd say, 30 different types that we have in the warehouse, right, and it's about trying to figure out when is it ready, when is it you know, and why? What are we doing it for? Are we doing it weird just for the sake of being weird, or are we trying to achieve something here?
Tiff Christie
Host
19:01

Yes, i suppose that's that question of do you start with flavor and try and find woods that work with that, or do you find the wood and say and ask it to tell you what it wants to give you in terms of flavor?
Alex Chasko
Guest
19:17

Yeah, i think you can have those plans, but at the end the spirit and the wood do their own thing. They they go to sleep in the warehouse for a number of years And when you're ready, you go up and you knock on the door and you say, hey, what do you have for me? What's what's going on in there? And they'll, they'll tell you right. And then it's up to you to try and figure out in your own mind How does this work? Or how does this not work, or what do I like about that?
Tiff Christie
Host
19:51

Now imagine climate. The climates that the oaks are growing in has a great deal of influence over the final tasting notes of the whiskey.
Alex Chasko
Guest
20:04

Yeah, absolutely That's. that's part of the. the joy, i think, of whiskey is that you are taking a plant with barley at the beginning, right, and you're extracting the fermentable sugars from that, and then you're asking another we'll call it loosely a plant, although it's actually a fungus yeast to ferment that wart and to create alcohol and esters and aldehydes and all those other things. And then you're taking that spirit and you're going to age it in another plant, right, the wood. So, yes, you've got all of the variations that come from the field and the harvest for the barley, all of the variations that can come from yeast and its interaction and fermentation process, and then all of the interactions of the wood, which is, of course, not growing to create good flavored whiskey.
21:05

right, it's growing to be a tree out in some place in the forest or field or wherever it's. it's trying to grow And you're coming along and you're yeah, you're cutting it down and you're making a barrel out of it, but you're trying to extract certain flavor profiles from it also. So there's a real intersection there of different plants. that's taking place with the whiskey making process And it's coming from various parts of the world as well.
21:38

Yeah, exactly.
Tiff Christie
Host
21:40

Can you see a time when any of these expressions would be so good that you would retain them as regular runs?
Alex Chasko
Guest
21:52

I Don't know. That's the the short answer to that. I think that I think it's interesting to have limited editions and to have Small releases, because consumers at the moment are looking for something new. They're looking for something different. Obviously, if you catch on to a winner, people are going to have favorite and there is an obvious desire to meet that need. But I also think that that Sentiment of consumers of they're looking for something new, they're looking for something different, that continues Also. So is it about trying to create the next 10 million case seller? I Don't know. I think it's probably more about come with me on this journey. We're going to have some fun and See what's out there. Right, as opposed to like, let's make Kim Kardashian's next best Whiskey to talk about, or you know what I mean?
Tiff Christie
Host
22:57

Yeah, like, yeah, that's probably not fair to Kim Kardashian, but Now I suppose I should at this point ask what is the reaction to this series been so far?
Alex Chasko
Guest
23:11

Extremely good. People have really been interested in going on that journey with us, right, and seeing, okay, what? what are the possibilities? I think that the drinks industry in general over the last 80 years have gone through a huge contraction of less producers Producing more volume, right, and now we see this craft Micro revolution taking place in and beer. We've seen that for a number of years in wine, right.
23:45

I think it's starting to happen now in spirits too, and I think that people are looking for brands and Experiences that are unique and individual to themselves. They want to go on this journey, right, they want to learn about it for themselves, and I think that it's great that the tea and whiskey company has different whiskies to Facilitate that. Right. We we make, oh man, dozens of different whiskies. I only say dozens because I'm not even sure myself to fast and the number of different whiskies that we make, yeah, but we've made hundreds of different whiskies, and and the point isn't that Everyone likes every one of them, right, the point is that you can find a tea, lean whiskey that you like from the hundreds right right.
Tiff Christie
Host
24:41

Do you think that it's interesting enough for consumers that it will actually bring people to Irish whiskey?
Alex Chasko
Guest
24:50

Yeah, i think people are looking to. I think that people are looking to Irish whiskey as a Product that has a history to it but is not constrained by The past right, so so teal we talk about, we know where we're coming from, we know the history of Irish whiskey and we have the confidence to move forward in a new and unique way. And so For us, it's about Saying, okay, what can we do to impact flavor? How can we take Irish whiskey and unique and new and interesting ways that it hasn't gone To in the past and attract new consumers to it? So, like even something as simple as our, our flagship, our small batch blend Which has rum casts that we use for the marrying process.
25:41

Yeah, it's got a rum raisin nose, it's got a honey sweetness to it. Right, and and that appeals both to an Irish whiskey consumer And it also appeals to a rum consumer. I've been really surprised over the years, number of rum drinkers that say I don't actually like Irish whiskey, but I like your Irish whiskey because it reminds me of rum. Right, and so when you start to get into those gray areas and you have those crossover Experiences, i think that there's some real exciting things that you can do and, and, and. That's the place that I like to play around And, as a maker, obviously yes.
Tiff Christie
Host
26:17

As well as creating these extraordinary journeys, you've also partnered with the tree council of Ireland for these expressions. How did that come about?
Alex Chasko
Guest
26:30

That came about from a desire to just be a good neighbor right, to just realize that, like we, have an opportunity to do something you know good for the environment and good for the community. So Ireland is known for its green grassy fields, right, and they talk about Ireland being 50 shades of green out there. Yeah, what isn't so obvious is that there actually used to be a vast forest across Ireland. In order to get all those green fields, they had to cut down a heck of a lot of trees.
Tiff Christie
Host
27:05

Yeah.
Alex Chasko
Guest
27:06

And I think we went a bit too far in one direction. And so we're trying to be good stewards and to be good neighbors and to work with the Tree Council of Ireland to return forests to areas around Dublin and the project that we're working with up in the hills around Dublin and in Wicklow And it's not an attempt to grow the next set of casks for the Teeling Whiskey Company. It's about planting ash and elm and alder and native Irish trees in a forest setting to create forest land right To be enjoyed, you know, as part of a responsible ecosystem. Right, it's not about 15 years from now We're gonna be cutting these suckers down and making some great cask for a Teeling Whiskey. No, no, no. This is about trying to actually genuinely reforest.
Tiff Christie
Host
28:08

Give back yeah.
Alex Chasko
Guest
28:09

Yeah, yeah, so that's exciting.
Tiff Christie
Host
28:13

What do you want people to take away from the wonders of wood expressions?
Alex Chasko
Guest
28:19

I hope that we can take a person who knows about Irish Whiskey, sees themselves as an educated consumer of Irish Whiskey, and expand their perception and their horizon a bit as to what Irish Whiskey could be. That Irish Whiskey is known for being light, sweet, fruity, approachable, right. Irish Whiskey can be so much more than that. You can go in so many more directions than just that And that, if they'll come with us on this journey, we can start to show how we can make some crack in Irish Whiskey. that isn't what you think of Irish Whiskey as being, and then we can do that through different wood types right.
29:11

And that we can give people an opportunity to taste the possibilities of what Irish Whiskey can be.
Tiff Christie
Host
29:21

Now, if they do come on that journey with you, where is Teeling available? Where can they find it?
Alex Chasko
Guest
29:27

Oh, you can find it in a lot of different places. It's fairly clear we're in 60 different countries. It's at the moment the one is a wood is being sold in Europe and in Asia and Australia and in the United States, and it's tending to be in your more independent, exclusive kind of high-end bottle shop, liquor store retailers. But it's available out there Most of the time. What happens when I'm talking to somebody about Teeling? they say I love this whiskey, it's great. I wish it was only available back home. And then I say, oh, where do you live? And I get on online and of course, it's available at the store just down the street from inevitably wherever they live. So Teeling is out there. That's about going out there and finding it.
Tiff Christie
Host
30:23

Now, if people want more information to help them find it, they can, of course, go to teelingwiskeycom or connect with the brand via your socials.
Alex Chasko
Guest
30:34

Yeah, we're on all the social medias and we find that being a great way to engage with people. We have posts regularly on Facebook and Twitter and even TikTok. Now, to keep me off of the TikTok, as a near 50-year-old man, tiktok is definitely not my social media outlet. But, yeah, we try and engage with consumers wherever they are and in whatever format they want to engage with us.
Tiff Christie
Host
31:05

Excellent. All right, alex look. Thank you so much for taking the time to talk to us about Wonders of Wood. Looking forward to seeing how it progresses.
Alex Chasko
Guest
31:14

My pleasure. Thank you for having me, and it's great to tell people about the wonders of wood.