Tiff Christie
This is Cocktails Distilled, a podcast that takes your favourite spirits and cures from the still to the cocktail glass. In each episode, we talk to distillers and creators about particular expressions that their brand have released, what they are, why they were created and in what cocktails they can be used. Are you ready to understand what's in your glass? Or perhaps should be? Welcome to Cocktails Distilled.
Tiff Christie
You might think that, having created beloved brands like Hendrix and Sailor Jerry, Stephen Grass would easily feel justified resting on his laurels. Instead, he sought out land in one of the most remote areas of New Hampshire where he, with the assistance of his head distiller Matt Power, created Tamworth Distilling. Known for their choice of the unusual and truly bizarre. Grasse has used what he terms as creative grenades to push the brand's sense of enchantment and mysticism. But are one-of-a-kind releases enough in the present climate? We talk to Grass and Power about the influence of marketing. What makes a great spirit and distilling in isolation.
Steve and Matt, thanks for joining us.
Thank you.
Now. You've had some pretty exotic releases, which have been your favorite?
Matt Power
I think the whole house of Tamworth line of spirit is really interesting because we use such exotic ingredients. By exotic I mean like game and, and you know, meat animals. I think the one my favorite that stands out is Crab Trapper because it's the one that went the most viral and I also love the story behind it that it helps with the problem with invasive species and I think that's partly why it went so viral is that it actually solves a real problem. But, Matt, what's your favorite?
Steven Grasse Host 02:23
Yeah, well, among the House of Chambert line, I think I'd have to say Deer Slayer, just because it's a really fun product to make, being that it's got some unusual ingredients that kind of bring a woodsy feel and then it's all kind of blended into a sausage that gets fermented before the aroma is distilled out. So it's kind of got this suite of stages that go into making it that are a bit ritualistic. That's really nice.
Tiff Christie Host 02:53 Now, Matt, I'll start with you. What makes a great spirit?
Steven Grasse Host 02:57
Oh, a great spirit. Yeah, you got to hit all the notes on that one. It's taken us some time to kind of figure out what those things are and how to conspire to bring them in to work together. Oftentimes you've got to have something that's familiar to a consumer. It helps to have a flavor that's unique, that lures them in, maybe harkens back to a memory. And aside from know, aside from those things, you know, it really has to taste great. It has to kind of like tantalize all those parts of what make us human, be interesting aromatically, you know, maybe have a slight bit of sweetness, but not too much. It's just got to be good juice. But then, you know, Steve really comes in with his side of things and he'll have a completely different answer for you. Comes in with his side of things and he'll have a completely different answer for you, most likely. But where these things come together is really where it's.
Matt Power Host 03:47 It's quite beautiful, I think yeah, I mean I I think what makes a great spirit is obviously you need great liquid.
03:57
I think it needs to be differentiated like it needs to be different, and then you need a great story and then great packaging and then a really interesting world for the brand to live in, and if all those things come together, you have an explosive combination that really not only goes viral but it's insane because it has enough interest that people come back to it again and again.
04:20
So, and I think what's amazing about what we've been able to do at Tamworth is, you know, I'm a marketing guy but I've assembled a really great distilling team and we put the distillery in a place that has very interesting provenance we'd never be able to do up there because it's very. We can actually use very unique ingredients but but forage for them and find them ourselves. So it's it's not like we're we're going to a flavor house and creating an artificial flavor and making like bubblegum flavored vodka. It's like we're actually like when we made our our storium beaver with Dee, we had to paint a trapper who actually can get us some Deavers right. So it's a really interesting situation to be in.
Tiff Christie Host
Ultimately, what is more important the marketing or the liquid?
Matt Power Host
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Oh, I think it has to be all of the things coming together and I think what's really unique about us. So usually, especially for craft distilleries, they either make great liquid now, actually, I don't know of a single craft distillery that does good marketing it's usually they don't because they're focused on the liquid, and they should be. What's very unique about our experience is we have these two worlds that come together. I mean Tamworth is powered by Quaker City Mercantile in Philadelphia, which is a parent company which I'm in Philadelphia right now. The Quaker is the company that created Hendrix and Sailor Jerry and many other brands and we take that 35 years of experience and knowledge and we apply it to the craft experience level and it makes it a very unique proposition and I don't think there's anyone else in the country doing the unique spirits we are, but then also doing the sophisticated level of marketing that we're doing.
Tiff Christie Host
I will take it a step further and say that there actually is a dearth of clever marketing in this industry. Why do you think that is?
Matt Power Host
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06:31
Oh, yeah, I agree, because I think it's all these old guys running things right Now. Actually, I think it depends. Okay, so on a craft level, it's guys. Again, they're like you know, we always joke about beards and barrels, so Matt has a beard, but it's really like a culture of same mentality that goes into craft beer. Right, there's not a lot of storytelling or interest, but when you get up onto the higher level with the multinational conglomerates, there's pretty good marketing. But then things get so big that everything's designed by committee, yeah, where everything's designed by focus group. And I think what's really unique about our brands is we have that experience, we know how to do all of that stuff, but there are no focus groups. Our focus groups are putting it out in the market and see what happens and and it's also like, uh, we're just having a lot of fun and we get away with it because we don't have a global parent company telling us that we can't do it. And you know what, the weirder we get, the more it seems to work. Yeah.
Tiff Christie Host
Now Tamworth is about to hit the 10-year mark.
Steven Grasse Host Yeah.
Tiff Christie Host
Which I didn't realize until I looked it up how long you've been going. I didn't think it had been that long. Looking back, though, is it what you expected? Oh, absolutely
yeah.
Matt Power Host
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I mean, is it what we expected? Well, yeah, we've completely outgrown our facility. We've bought another 120 acres. A few miles down the road we just put up a massive barrel house. That is just beautiful. And we have plans laid down to build another 10,000 square foot facility manufacturing facility. So it's exceeded what we expected, you know, and it's interesting because the weird stuff we do is what gets all the attention. But we sell a lot of whiskey, we sell a lot of gin, we sell a lot of what we call base spirits and obviously the state of New Hampshire is our largest client. But you can get our products in 38 states through direct-to-consumer. But yeah, we're selling a lot of booze.
Tiff Christie Host 08:42 So, yes, what lessons did those brands like Hendrix and Sailor Jerry, etc. teach you that you were able to apply to Tamworth?
Matt Power Host 08:54
Well, before we were in the spirits industry, we were in the tobacco industry. I worked for RJ Reynolds for 20 years and we always called that the Marketing Marine Corps, because you couldn't do anything that normal brands could because there were so many restrictions, right? So with spirits, there are less restrictions, but what's interesting about working? So we worked with RJ Reynolds Tobacco and we also worked with Puma, the sneaker company globally, and Puma had no money, right, but they obviously ended up succeeding thanks to me. But what working on both of those things taught us is how to create interesting brands that don't need a lot of paid advertising to work.
09:38
So we applied that way of thinking when we created Hendricks and we applied that way of thinking when we created Sailor Jerry, and both those brands became massive global hits, and we apply the same principles, on a smaller scale, to what we're doing in Tamworth. So it's really about how to create really intriguing, interesting, multi- layered brand worlds and interesting liquids. That's sticky and those things go viral, and once they go viral, you ride the waves. You build your brands from there. So, yes, we learned a lot from Hendrix and Salon Deer, but what we learned from those we learned at school, right.
Tiff Christie Host 10:17 Matt, a question for you. In a Darwinian way, does isolation lead to greatness?
Steven Grasse Host 10:29
Oh gosh, you're really tapping into my roots here. Yeah, well, evolution, you know, is driven by competition. So you know, you could say that, darwinianly, isolation is just sort of allowing us to do whatever we want to do without any bounds that are kind of sculpting us, and I think it's all in the eye of the beholder. But yeah, we certainly benefit from a luxury of being a unique presence, I think, in this region and the way that we're afforded opportunities to explore things in experimental ways. And, you know, I think we can leave it out to the customer about whether they like it or not. You know, some of our stuff's pretty divergent from standards and that's fine, that's kind of by design and some people really dig it and we really hope that that's the case more and more we really hope that that's the case more and more.
Matt Power Host 11:30
I think isolation leads to greatness, because my distilling team is not attracted by friends and by what's going on. They're actually pretty think very unique group. It's also why why we like being in Philadelphia, for the other part, because we're not in New York or Los Angeles, where we have unique thinking because we're other part, because we're not in New York or Los Angeles, we have unique thinking because we're not in the hub of it all.
Tiff Christie Host 11:51 Does creating unusual spirits actually set up unmaintainable expectations, though?
Matt Power Host 12:01
I'll answer this quickly and then, matt, you can chime in Again. The unusual spirits are a way of putting Tamworth distilling on the map. Okay, yeah, we know that we're not going to sell an absolute. You know, they're not creating the next Jack Daniels by making a beaver anus whiskey. Right, yeah, but some of these it's interesting because we have a brand called Grave Robber. Grave Robber is a maple rye whiskey that we use graveside maple trees to tap the whiskey I mean to tap the maple. And that started at the House of Tamworth product in a small little bottle and we put it into a 750 ml bottle now and that's selling really well. Right, because it's a really great story and the team managed to create a flavored whiskey that wasn't all fake artificial flavor and sickly sweet. So in some ways, the crazy stuff is a way to test bigger ideas that we can then make on a larger scale, right? So, matt, I don't know if you want to add to that at all.
Steven Grasse Host 13:13
Oh, as one of the people who has to put this stuff together conceptually and physically, I can say that it does get harder over time. You know, we explore options, we make combinations and we try to kind of give birth around some of those previous notions. So, yeah, it gets harder and sometimes it feels like the expectations are indeed lofty, ever loftier in some regards. So you know, it pushes us definitely to think even further outside the box. Sometimes we wonder if there's even a box to be outside of.
Matt Power Host
I'm insatiable. I don't let anyone rest ever, and I think it drives them crazy.
Tiff Christie Host
Or drives them foraging. Yeah, what percentage of your ingredients are actually foraged locally?
Steven Grasse Host
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What percentage. That's tough we do. Is it the majority of us? Or? Well, you know, the majority of the stuff that we we get just doesn't grow abundantly around here, some something like juniper. We do have to source a lot of that and that's, you know, the primary ingredient in gin. So it starts to talk about massive and everything. It's hard to really put a finger exactly on a percentage, but there are ingredients that we absolutely can't even buy. We have to go out and hand forage and are very selective about how we source those and what actually makes it into the spirit.
Matt Power Host
But we do our foraging very ethically as well. We make sure that we don't deplete things, Absolutely yeah.
Tiff Christie Host
That's the first rule of foraging, really, isn't it Absolutely?
Is there a temptation to make weird for weird's sake?
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14:57 15:02
Matt Power Host
Ah well, here's the thing. If you look at, remember when, what was it? Empirical Doritos, yes, okay, that's weird for weird sake, and they got blasted for making that. I think
they probably sold a lot of it, but I think they lost a lot of, I don't know. I think people were like, what the hell is this?
15:31
This, our stuff sounds crazy, but it always gets really good reviews because people are always like, oh my god, this is really good. So I think it's not weird for weird sake, it's. It's weird and it gets your attention. But when you try it, my goal is to have you go like, oh my gosh, that's amazing. So and I really credit Matt and his team there was a great article in Food and Wine that said this is the future of the bar cart, and it was saying that what started as a gimmick is now very serious and you need to have these in your bar cart. And we also our Saison de Fray, which is our milk trout brandy, one spirit of the year in Esquire magazine. So these are serious. They sound crazy, but they're serious. So I don't know if you want to add to that.
Tiff Christie Host
So is that the line? That it can sound crazy as long as it's backed up with a really good liquid?
Steven Grasse Host
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16:35
Definitely yeah, yeah. And that's what I would add is that you know a lot of these concepts are. You know they're formulated around a table and they. Part of that discussion is to try to get something that has a certain form to it. That has a certain form to it, but really, where the liquid team comes in is trying to take that idea as off the wall as it may be and really try to bring some artistry into it and unite it into something that is not just a novelty.
Matt Power Host 17:03 Yeah, and sometimes we abandon ideas because they're just not working Right, and that doesn't happen that often, but sometimes it's like all right, let me try it, move on.
Yeah, you know.
Tiff Christie Host 17:16 Recently, you released the Goose and Spruce. Tell us a little bit about that combination of flavors?
Matt Power Host 17:27
Well, I'll just say quickly, when we started it it I think it started with my brother david, who does handles production up there. I think he was talking about um, because what's interesting with saison and bray, that trout, smoke trout, we noticed. We tapped into a rabid fan of trout fishers okay, anglers, okay like and my brother's a, uh, an avid waterfowl hunter, okay, so he he would. He would say we could do something with duck, duck fat or with, uh, goose. Well, that's simply where it started. And then we got talking about carol's dickens and christmas gooses and all sorts of stuff, and then that took over.
Steven Grasse Host 18:12
Yeah, yeah, you know it's Dickens Christmas is really the best way to describe it. I think you know it was fortunate that in the production schedule it was sort of around the holidays. We were already in that mindset of preparing for Christmas and Thanksgiving. But yeah, goose, thinking about goose, uh, really, we kind of tossed it around and not many people had much experience with it, but it really conjured up some of those images of of sort of that Dickens table, some like really warm, fatty, uh, qualities in the air, maybe some like deep fruity quality also in there, but also, you know, like that, that bright vibrancy of the Christmas tree.
18:57
Yeah, and you know these doing these, these liquids with meat, are almost always dealing with really heavy aromas, stuff that you know it can sit pretty heavy on the palate and so we really wanted to make sure it was light and it didn't have that sort of day old turkey or goose flavor, yeah, and so the spruce really provides some nice life to it. And the specialty plums that we got, the dried plums from Santa Inez, those added, just like this wonderful rosy depth that was just so inviting and tantalizing, combined with that fat of the goose as well as the bright vibrancy of the evergreen. Yeah, it really kind of took care of itself with just a few ingredients really hit all of the notes of that cord.
Matt Power Host
And then we foraged the spruce tips.
Steven Grasse Host Yes, yes indeed.
Matt Power Host
And we did that with. Did we tie a conservation program to this too?
Steven Grasse Host
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Yeah, yeah, it was the district conservation people from New Hampshire. They kind of took us under their wing and brought us out to some white spruce plantation. Awesome, yeah, which was really interesting. When we got up there, we learned that this place had once been an experimental forest for this particular species of spruce, and as we walked around in different areas, the different spruces from different regions that had kind of been compiled and planted, they all had different aromas so we kind of were able to like shop around, like terroir-like, and get some. Really, yeah, it was fabulous because I think as we've embarked on this project, we learned that white spruce, the species that we used, is also known as cactus spruce, and we learned why a lot of the trees that we smelled were not good, and so we only picked from the good ones.
Tiff Christie Host
You would have to be careful with that. I think yes.
Steven Grasse Host
Indeed, yeah, although you know we could have another acetamber on our line.
Matt Power Host
Yeah, we call it cap-ins.
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The sustainability and naturalism aspect of what we do are very important to me. I know they're very important to Matt and our whole group. By working with spirits the way we're doing and by building the distillery the way we're building, I think it's a really good, sustainable small business that is, uh, working on certain principles, if you're not just buying a bottle of whiskey that is got some chemical flavors thrown in. Each bottle has a story and there's a a real effort went into each bottle that we sell to have a sustainable future. It's important to us.
Tiff Christie Host
In what other ways does that sustainability come through?
Matt Power Host
Well, okay, so the new facility, matt, you could talk about the barrel house we just built. Yeah, I hope it works because it's a crazy experimental structure.
Steven Grasse Host
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yeah, yeah, so he mentioned it's beautiful and it is. It's this wonderful timber framed construction, a 40 by 100 foot barn made by a local craftsman with local trees. But one of the really cool features of it, aside from just the general aesthetics and construction approach, are that we put the entire sun facing roof surface as these transparent panels, so we can go in there. On a day like today, that's about zero degrees out there and it's actually very warm um compared to the outside, and so we're hoping that this will provide us ourselves with, uh, some very environmentally conscious heating for something that could otherwise be quite an energy suck. Hopefully get some sort of Australian temperatures there in the winter or here in the summer, that is.
Tiff Christie Host 22:50 Yeah, so basically things will mature faster.
Matt Power Host 22:55 Well, interesting, I just found this out last week. We have the same climate as the Scottish Highlands. Well interesting, we have. I just found this out last week. We have the
same climate as the Scottish Highlands. Oh, okay, but we have more extremes, so our summers get hotter and our winters get colder.
Tiff Christie Host Okay.
Matt Power Host
So what we do is, in the summer, this barrel house is going to blast with heat. It's going to get up to 140 degrees in there.
Tiff Christie Host Yeah.
Matt Power Host
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In the winter. Whiskey stops aging when it gets below 55, right, that's what I understand. Yeah, so the extremes of temperature actually really help the aging process. It's quite interesting. We also take all of our spent grain. It's given to a local farmer for cattle feed and for fertilizer. We also give the local farmer for cattle feed and for fertilizer, and we also give the local baker for spent grain bread. So we're also really good with our water management. The distillery uses a surprisingly little amount of water, and so I think on every level we are in harmony with our surroundings and it's something we strive to do, and the products we make tell the story, but also the way we do it tells the story.
Tiff Christie Host 24:02 Getting back to the story of the goose and spruce, how many iterations, how many tries did you have until you got it the way you wanted it?
Steven Grasse Host 24:14
to be, oh gosh, trial and error on these things, For these products. It can really run the gamut. We can put out, you know, scores that don't really come together very well. Uh, this particular one. Yeah, we started with the goose, as I recall, and we had to distill that at several different temperatures on this machine behind me, which which allows us to distill that at several different temperatures, on this machine behind me, which allows us to distill at different temperatures by vacuum. That afforded us an idea of what sort of qualities of the meat we wanted to bring forward. I think that was like four distillations for those different variant of flavor intensities. And then we had to try a couple different types of fruit and eventually had to go and forage for some white spruce and try those out, and then we tried a couple different types of plums as well. So overall, you know, I think if you do all the math, maybe there could have been 12 or 15 variants that led up to what we made and what sort of turnaround time are we looking at with that?
Tiff Christie Host
have been 12 or 15 variants that led up to what we made. And what sort of?
Matt Power Host
We kind of plan them a year in advance. Okay, so there's a period of ideation where we all brainstorm and then we decide on something, and then Matt goes through a long period of trying to sort where he can even get the ingredients and then figure out how he's going to make it, and then you'll make like I don't know like four or five different variations of it and we all taste them.
Steven Grasse Host
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Yeah. Yeah, we sense that goes through a few different stages, but this one was we definitely had to plan ahead because of the seasonality of getting local goose. The goose is not a very common ingredient, and then the spruce tips that we needed to get were also. That was something of a coordination too. We had to get permits, we had to travel a fair distance. So, yeah, we definitely have to plan in advance and sort of sculpt this whole concept with the limitations of reality often.
Tiff Christie Host 26:23 When you are brainstorming flavor ideas, what are your parameters?
Matt Power Host 26:31
The parameters can be anything, but it's like it can be ingredient-led or it can be story-led. So if I have a story or an idea, matt might say flat out that's not going to work. We can't make a bat-dumb spirit, right yeah? Or Matt might say he has a very interesting idea for an ingredient, or someone on the team might have an interesting idea or an interesting story and we'll just start bouncing things around. I don't think anything is off the list. The only thing that limits us is the US government. They kind of dictate what you can and can't do. Apparently, we've been told by the government agency, the TTV, which regulates this stuff, that we are by far the most annoying distillery in America because we are the ones who are constantly making them pull their hair out because we're asking them to do things that no one's ever done before. Obvious, and I love that. That's great.
Tiff Christie Host
Yeah, I can see. How do you think the landscape has changed for small distilleries in the last decade?
Matt Power Host
I'd say they were going great for the last decade. It's only this year that things have fallen off over a cliff.
Tiff Christie Host Yeah.
Matt Power Host
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And it's not just craft distilleries, but all spirits are not having the best year. This year, I think there's a hangover from covid and a hangover from um cannabis and all sorts of things, so I think it's changing right. Yeah, it's one of the reasons we make a lot of different spirits is, I feel like you know, putting all your chips on one category I think is very, very risky at this point, because you know, we've been reading that there's a bourbon glut now, like there's so much bourbon out there that you know prices are diving and we have we make 60 different products in Tamworth, which drives everyone crazy. But I think that we always have a new story to tell and we always have a variety of different things that might be of interest. So, but it's definitely gotten more challenging.
Steven Grasse Host 28:41
You always have a variety of different things that might be of interest, but it's definitely gotten more challenging. Should they be trying to do things that are a little more unexpected? It's not just that I think they need to do things. It's called marketing, and I think a lot of craft distillers don't quite understand that, and I think for many years it used to be enough to simply be open because it was a curiosity in your town or neighborhood and it would drive traffic. And I think craft beer is quite the same thing right now, and I think now they take more sophisticated marketing, but it's still at the heart of everything. If you have a good story, interesting packaging and exceptional liquid, you will win the battle and you will make it through. That's our rallying cry. We need those things together and you'll have success. So, all of the craft distillers listening to this, what you need to do is hire me to kick your marketing.
Tiff Christie Host 29:45 You've talked about the number of expressions that Tamworth has. Are most of those limited releases?
Steven Grasse Host 29:52
It's like a pyramid. It's like a pyramid. There's like very rare things. At the top we have a whole rare cast program for whiskeys. We have the House of Tamworth series, which is the you know, the weird stuff, and then we make a whole line of a very fresh cordials that are are made in a very distinctive way, and a lot of that stuff is, uh, you know, we use whole fresh ingredients, locally grown things. Then we have our, our gins, and the gins are again the limited release gin. Some them are very rare. But then there's the main gin brand. It's called White Mountain Gin by Tamworth Garden, and then we have Old man of the Mountain Bourbon. We have Coral Rye Whiskey and then we have we just launched a Spice Rum, a whiskey called Dunn's and Grave Robber. We're about to launch an apple whiskey called Old Baldy, and those are much more mass. So there's a total pyramid of different things we do. Some of them are very rare, some of them are designed to be more broader, broader based.
Tiff Christie Host 30:52 So where does Tamworth go from here?
Matt Power Host 30:55
Well, we're very excited because we're standing with a new property Ernest Gallo. Who owns Gallo. Ernest Jr, a client of mine. When we opened Tamworth Distilling, he came to visit us and he said I want to give you some advice. Every craft distiller makes the same mistake they try to go to too many states all at once and their products just sit on the shelf collecting dust. He said dominate the state you're in. Do that first and then move across, then move out.
Tiff Christie Host 31:26 Yeah.
Matt Power Host 31:26
So that's what we've done. So New Hampshire is the third biggest buyer of spirits in the world. Okay, Because they're a state monopoly, the first biggest buyer. The first is Canada. Canada operates as a single buyer and state monopoly. Pennsylvania is number two state monopoly. New Hampshire is number three. So we are by far the largest craft distillery in the third biggest single buyer market in the world. So the state of New. Hampshire has been a great partner market in the world.
31:56
So Staten New Hampshire has been a great partner. I think we have eight products in their store, in the majority of their stores. The rest of the products are for sale in our retail store. You have to go to the distillery or they're on sale on our website. So where do we go in the future? We also just opened a distillery in Pennsylvania Second biggest buyer experience in the world and we're expanding into Pennsylvania. So we like controlled states, we like state monopolies, which most people don't. Most people hate them, but for us it's great because it's a single buyer buying your products and you build a relationship with that single buyer and then you're at every store and then from there we go national. But we're taking like own the states we're in and then go from there.
Tiff Christie Host 32:44 Now, if people want to find out more about Tamworth, they can, of course, go to your website, which is tamworthdistillingcom, or connect with the brand via your socials.
Matt Power Host 32:57
Yeah, just look up Tamworth Distilling. We're on Instagram, facebook, but if you're see, I'm serious. If you want to talk to us about marketing your own brand Joseph's podcast look up Quaker City Mercantile. That's the marketing agency that owns Tamworth Distilling. Nice, okay, and that's. We're in Philadelphia and we'd love to talk to you about you know, even if it's just talking to you about what you have and and telling you what, what our thoughts are and we're we're good distilling community members and we were eager to talk to others and help as much as we can.
Tiff Christie Host
One last thing I meant to ask, can people actually come to Tamworth Distillery?
Matt Power Host
Oh yeah yeah. We're in the middle of nowhere, but we have a massive retail period at the distillery.
Tiff Christie Host Okay.
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Matt Power Host
We're an hour and a half from Portland, maine, and we're what two hours and a bit from Boston, maine, and we're what two hours and a bit from Boston. I think Right, but
it's a lovely way to spend an afternoon and it's pretty cold there right now. In the fall and in the summer it's heaven.
Tiff Christie Host
All right, steve and Matt, look. Thank you so much for joining us.
Steven Grasse Host Thanks, Tiff.
Tiff Christie Host Thank you.
Matt Power Host
Thank you, yeah, it was fun.
Tiff Christie Host

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